Posts by stirred but not shaken

121

Hey ya'll! My first post. Please help. In need of advice/comfort.

by Stepford Wife in

jw
friends

hey ya'll!

i have been lurking for years on this site and others but never had the courage to post anything.

actually i was afraid of posting on an apostate site in the event i was wrong.

stirred but not shaken

There's been quite a bit of good advice given here on your situation. A couple of things that bear repeating: You are not obligated to meet with the elders. They would be out of line and going ahead of the Christian arrangement. Your husband is your spiritual head, not them. If he can't handle it as a loving husband and shepherd, he shouldn't be serving. Unless you're making waves in the congregation by spouting off your doubts and trying to influence others, it's his responsibility. All the elders need to know is that he's working patiently with your problem. He can honestly say that. He can tell them that it's brought you to some sort of depression and that its quite awkward for you to be at meetings and to go in field service for the time being. He can honestly tell them that meeting with a couple of elders will only make the matter worse for now. Which brings up the issue of whether he really wants to help or if he's more concerned about his position or how it looks to others. So in your private conversations, calmly plead that you have a conscience, and right now it's conflicted. Don't put him on the defensive or show anger. Don't rant negatively about the Org. The blood issue is an easy target, but not to an indoctrinated JW. Common sense isn't part of the equasion so don't rely on it.

Continue to be a good wife and mother. Go out your way (but not too obvious) he might just respond well.

This may work for a while, but be aware that the next time the CO comes around, he's going to want an update. The Branch is getting more and more concerned about doubters, so they may step around the headship thing. So work on the husband and wife relationship in a positive way. He needs to understand that it's your conscience not a community one. Because Jehovah and Jesus can only be served by a sincere heart..which wouldn't be the result of a conflicted conscience. John 4 is useful. The father must be worshipped with spirit and truth. No half hearted compromise will do. Your husband should agree with that. One would hope anyway. The best to you.

11

Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls-Do the Scrolls Help us Understand Early Christianity?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

i think most scholarship would agree with a positive answer to that question.

but let's take a look for oursselves.

geza vermes, in his excellent translation ( the complete dead sea scrolls in english-penguin.

stirred but not shaken

I tried reading books about the DDS as i was fascinated by the traveling display of the DDS in the USA. We got to see it in a city near us. Lots of JWs went to see the display when it came. By that time, I was well into the books and knew a considerable more info than the "friends" who's main interest was to locate Jah's name. I remember offering some things to look for, and I'm afraid it was too much info for them to handle.

I thought it interesting that the Qumran community was so monastic and determined to present themselves pure in body and spirit. They were all things communal. If you fell out of favor with the community, you could and would likely starve to death. Their location was close to the Jordan where John did his baptising, which for me was sort of a revelation. Like..why baptism? Where did that concept begin? While I'm not certain of the conclusion, that community at Qumran ceremoniously bathed several times a day. The Essenes were another faction of the Jews along with the Pharisees and Sadducees. They felt the existing priesthood in Jerusalem was illegitimate and were openly critical of it. Knowing the background of these sects helps when reading the words of Jesus and his apostles. Particularly in Jesus case, as he had to always consider his audience's background. Lots more to know about their (DDS) existence.

The 2 books that were helpful for me: "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the First Christians" - Robert Eiseman and "The Dead Sea Scrolls: The Truth Behind The Mystique" - Lawrence A. Schiffman (this is available in 7 CDs incorporating 14 lectures) He's very animated. Listened as I drove around during business day. Understanding that period and the Maccabees era is a great help in putting puzzle parts together re: what Jesus had to deal with, and years later when decisions were made re: the Bible canon. Good background!

9

Comparison too severe?

by stirred but not shaken in

the other night i watched a documentary about hitler's germany involving valkyries.

it had to do with the "resistance" movement and the attempt to assassinate hitler to stop his madness.

those involved were elite officers in the military, and there were many and they were often prominent, barons, counts, etc.

stirred but not shaken

It would appear that cults have a stronger hold on their members than the Nazi regime. I couldn't imagine a coup in the Wt organization, and a subsequent deprogramming of it's present leadership. But then....one could only hope. Wow!!!would that be amazing.

9

Comparison too severe?

by stirred but not shaken in

the other night i watched a documentary about hitler's germany involving valkyries.

it had to do with the "resistance" movement and the attempt to assassinate hitler to stop his madness.

those involved were elite officers in the military, and there were many and they were often prominent, barons, counts, etc.

stirred but not shaken

Simon, I agree that a comparison using nazi Germany would likely be a conversation stopper. I doubt that I would ever use that in conversing with a JW, as they would blister at the thought. The documentary struck me at the time, that the technics are so similar. Many here on this forum have had to endure the type of propaganda that labels them (us) as undesirables, traitors, bitter lying apostates, lacking humility, and rushing ahead of Jah, etc. Most of us are just trying to figure out how we could have been so bamboozled. The technics that were used under Hitler's regime were remarkably similar. Humans doing despicable things to other humans in the name of loyalty. I suppose it would be best to present the technics and not use the term Nazi Germany, but eventually the name nazi will be recognized in infamy for that technic. The world has been fighting against it ever since, but exists in more than one more or less obscure group. I know that the persecution I've received from friends, family ( brothers) is worse than the previous worldly attempts I had to endure growing up as a JW. And...yes I do think the comparison is too severe.

9

Comparison too severe?

by stirred but not shaken in

the other night i watched a documentary about hitler's germany involving valkyries.

it had to do with the "resistance" movement and the attempt to assassinate hitler to stop his madness.

those involved were elite officers in the military, and there were many and they were often prominent, barons, counts, etc.

stirred but not shaken

The other night I watched a documentary about Hitler's Germany involving Valkyries. It had to do with the "resistance" movement and the attempt to assassinate Hitler to stop his madness. Those involved were elite officers in the military, and there were many and they were often prominent, Barons, Counts, etc. The assassination failed and the conspirators were rounded up by the SS and gestapo. These were incarcerated and then either faced the firing squad (if you were lucky) or hanged with a slim cord causing a slow and painful death. Those who suffered this fate, weren't the only ones to suffer. Even after the surrender to the Allies, their families had to endure the label of traitor and were mistreated. It wasn't until much later that the new government expressed it's gratitude for those men for their motives. They wanted the world to know that not all Germans were inhumane beasts. The German people had been suffering the stigma that the country and it's citizens were responsible for what Hitler and the Nazi party foisted on them through a clever, albeit diabolical propaganda program.

It made me think of how propaganda can be abused. Because all advertising is virtually propaganda, much of it is innocuous. But in the skilled hands of those bent on mind control, it will even cause the nicest of society to contribute to the ruin of others. Anything come to your mind? Is the comparison too severe?

19

Identity Theft

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

this forum offers the stories of folks with as many variations as there are folks and a “great crowd” of lurkers whose stories may never be offered.

i am an outsider with a broken heart for some insiders that i love more than they know.

after reading nearly every “apostate” book ever written, lurking, being worn out searching the wt cd, i have come to an idea that i present for your appraisal..

stirred but not shaken

I've been in ongoing conversations with a close friend, a former pioneer partner from the 60s and 70s. He's aware of the history of JWs and has read extensively, among other things, about Russell and his early associates. Despite knowing of the early blunders and the ongoing changes and clarifications, he has decided to remain an elder and supports the agenda of the organization. He feels that the printed material and the meetings have helped many. That's no doubt true. I told him i couldn't do that because my conscience wouldn't allow it. To me it was about accountability. If one little sheep is injured by the false teachings, it's one too many, and there is a never ending list of injurious teachings.

26

My Story "Act 2"

by MarkofCane in

“it has been said, 'time heals all wounds.

' i do not agree.

the wounds remain.

stirred but not shaken

MOC

Chuck had a bubbly wife. Was known to be compassionate with elders (and others) who had to juggle families with cong. responsibilities. I give him credit for doing the CO and DO thing after raising a family. Being indoctrinated doesn't help much in the final outcome, even if you have some fine qualities. If you have to take sides, it won't be the right one in that situation.

26

My Story "Act 2"

by MarkofCane in

“it has been said, 'time heals all wounds.

' i do not agree.

the wounds remain.

stirred but not shaken

Nicely presented. Good style. Telling like it is, but not bashing.

My last "Bible Study" asked some questions that related to the the days mentioned in Daniel (2300. 1260, 1335). The questions came after I had explained what the 7 times and also the 70 weeks of years were. These have a mathematical calculation and could be feasible. But those other days involved the Cedar Point convention and other weird conclusions that only an indoctrinated JW could accept. I was too embarrassed to tell them. Made some excuses that it should be left for another time. That proved to be a chink in (my) the armor. Why should I feel embarrassed about this? After all, we had been selected for receiving the real truth. That wasn't the first time I was asked to explain it, but it was the first time it came up on a study for what i thought were the best candidates I had encountered in a long time. If I would have read them the explanation out of the "Daniel Prophecy" book, that study would have shut down. They were deeper thinkers. For me, it was yet another "why" or "how" moment that allowed me (like you) to do some more personal investigating. It didn't take long. However, the big surprise came when no one wanted to hear what the investigating or research turned up. I was never given the opportunity to "lead the horse to water".

Incidentally, was that DO you referred to Charles Waller? If so, I knew him to be honest and humble, but still and indoctrinated Witness reading from a manuscript of outline from the WT.

56

Any former elders brains I could pick?

by BarelyThere in

jw
friends

i posted in another topic a few hours ago.

it is my first time on here or any website like this, ever.

i was dfed back in september for adultery.

stirred but not shaken

If they didn't view you as repentant at the hearing, it's likely because you planned your exit from your present marriage. It doesn't matter if the marriage was a mistake, so you're going to have to show another course of repentance. I assume the marriage is over and neither of you want or can make a go of it again. This means you'll have to remain celibate and not even entertain having another mate. It will be at least a year, and you'll have to show your repentance by attending all meetings.

It's a game. If you want out after reinstatement, then view it as a game, but play by their rules for now.

49

Slightly different approach - JW my tradition

by closed in

hello everybody :) i have been visiting this forum for some time.

i noticed that many can't really free from the past in the org despite many years outside of jw.

i was awaken with a bang.

stirred but not shaken

My whole life, now over 70 yrs., focused on this religion. I came to understand that it was built on "sand". I was doing research on my own to reinforce the religious views i had been taught and endorsing since childhood. The sand started to shift. I wasn't on solid ground anymore. Some of the research was just plain history, and i would enjoy sharing that with others. Unfortunately, some of it didn't blend well with Wt. doctrine, and I made the mistake of suggesting that some things will probably have to change. King of the north became the first issue, and it grew from there. I eventually had to resign as a long time elder. I just couldn't teach it to others. My activity was in time greatly reduced. Then came the shepherding visits. Then a marking talk. I can go to meetings if I want, but no social activities. Long time intimate friends (hundreds) and even my siblings and all their families (very large) will only speak to me and my wife if we bump into them and usually they'll head the other way if they see us first. Isn't that just great?

Besides having that experience, I cannot support an organization that is dishonest and misleads others...(and I'm no angel), but my conscience just won't let me . Ex. I just recently sold a car that was 10 years old. It was in good shape, but had some problems but not serious. I told the buyer everything I knew about it, because I couldn't conscientiously conceal what i knew. That's how I would want to be treated when buying a used vehicle. By my tacit approval of teachings that are wrong, would I not also be an accomplice to promoting falsehood? So even after almost 70 yrs.(lifer) I just couldn't be a part of it anymore. But that's just me.

I gotta say though...it ain't easy.